People Over Politics

Mr. Meister:

I would like to apologize for the unkind remark I made (See article below - Norm). It was said in anger, and was totally irrelevant, and unjustifiable. I guess I'm just tired of politicians speaking out of both sides of their mouth.

Anyway, please accept my apology, and I hope you and your family have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Ms. Horchler,
This was the most emotional issue that this City has experienced. I fully know what it is like to lose ones temper. I lost mine at the first meeting that was cancelled and I couldn't believe my actions. This is the season of peace, hope, and goodwill to ALL people. I accept your appology and lets pray that things get better. My Family wishes your Family a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

Mark Meister

Debary Citizens,

There are 5 abandoned houses within a short walk of my own, one just got it's screen doors and water system stolen. That house is 4 years old , bank owned and has zero chance of being sold at any price remotely close to what the bank has in it.

There are nearly 500 homes in Debary that are in pre-foreclosure, bank owned or up for auction, that number went up by 5 more this week alone. How many commercial properties will be foreclosed on is up for anyone's guess.

For Sale, Lease, Rent signs are up from border to border in Debary on both commercial and residential properties. Incentives are being offered to customers that do not exist. These customers will not exist for a long time to come.

Serious increases in unemployment,crime,poverty are in Debary's near term future. That is exactly what should happen and will happen.

So how do the leaders of Debary prepare for our economic future?

They turn down the $20 million dollar Debary Town Center Project that could have helped. They turn down the possibility of future jobs and tax revenues and wind up with nothing.

This project was not good enough for the high moral values of Debary displayed by our local non tax paying church groups and their gambling ORGANIZATION friends from Daytona.

This project was not good enough for a HIGH HORSE town like Debary, where people think they are above the current economic reality. A reality that is going to crush their illusions.

Debary residents will have higher taxes, increased unemployment, poverty and crime to look forward to.

Think about it, why would any company invest in a town like Debary, there is no reason and zero money available if there were. Debary has nothing to offer except too many people that are living in they past.

Meanwhile the owner's, managers and attorneys from the Daytona Kennel Club are howling with laughter at how they 'played' the citizens of Debary against this project. The gambler's hand was played well, Debary walked off a loser without even looking at the cards.

Morton Culligan

I attended the City Council Meeting on December 13th and I would like to congratulate both Norm and Lenny for finally being included in a majority three for, two against vote. I never thought I would see this happen before the new year. I almost fell off my chair when George made the motion to deny. Norm was paying attention as usual with a split second, second, and the rest is history.
I would like to thank Norm and Lenny for actually reading the materials that are presented to them and I have noticed that if there is something that they may not understand they are not afraid or embarrassed to let it be known and seek clarification. That is something that has been sorely lacking by some other council members.
I would also like to thank them both for their outstanding service since being elected and I wish them both the best in 2009. I know neither of them personally, but my feeing is that the residents of DeBary are fortunate to have them sitting on our council. I can only hope that Jack, Bob and Van will work as hard for us.

I read with interest Mark Meister's April of this year message entitled "Know When to Hold 'em -- Know When to Fold 'em." Wherein he poo-pooed the gambling and racetrack issue. BUT, LO AND BEHOLD, doesn't he show up at the December 13th Council meeting sporting the developer's green T-Shirt !!!! (I didn't know they made T-shirts in that size ... Omar ... you know the rest). His true colors came out after he lost the election!!!!!

C'mon folks, we have some real honest, hardworking and "clean" councilmembers: Lenny Marks, Norm Erickson, and now Van Conoley. Let's give them our full support as they now deal with the mess that was created by some of their predecessors, and apparently from what I've read, our current City Manager! (NOT including Mayor Coleman, bless his heart)!

They have their work cut out for them !!! AND THEY WILL DO IT WELL, WITHOUT THE DIRTY GAMBLING MONEY !!!!

This was written before I had any knowledge of what was really going to be developed. Nobody knew that other amenities would come with the project.

Nobody had any real information at that time. I was going on the fact of what the City and its representatives and staff knew. A casino/ racetrack would not be a good fit ALONE!!

While I was running for election, I found many of people for and against the project. This is why I wanted it put on a referendum. The statement before this states why the referendum wouldn't work.

This is the follow up...

I ran on a platform that was based on bringing in revenue for the City because I know where the direction of the economy was going. I also ran on the fact that the commuter rail was coming and we have to find ways of paying for it in a seven year span.

I did want a referendum and would have infatically voted to have this issue put on a ballot and the people vote on what they want for the City. After the election, I found out that a referendum was illegal and most be decided on a quasi-judicial vote by the Council in a public hearing.

I know of the multifamily dwellings that were going to be put there and was already voted upon. I did not want to see anymore residential because of the Cities tax structure and decided to back the DeBary Downs Project. We need revenue or this City will surely fail.

Shirley Horchler, my decision was based upon economic development and wasn't swayed by any other factors. I know that many people needed jobs and the City needed revenue. I considered this as an economic stimulus for a City effected by a miserable economy and misfortune due to Tropical Storm Fay. I was not biased whatsoever by any other factors.

I wish Mr. Garcia luck in his upcoming term and I have already told him that I would help him in any way possible. The City will face many trials and tribulations in the next few years. I pray that this new City Council sees the wisdom and the judgement to make the right decisions for the City. Times are rough and I do wholeheartedly think we have just seen the tip of the iceberg.

As for Shirley Horchler, your statements did not have to go to making fun of an individuals appearences and quite frankly shows much immaturity.

As for the rest, time will tell the story and in all honesty, I hope I am wrong. I hear we have one more major round of foreclosures coming in the near future. We shall see what happens.

Mark Meister

TAHDAHHHHHHHH .... finally the voices of reason...the voices of true objective, thoughtful deliberation...nothing would have been worse than an off the cuff quick decision for or against rezoning...rather the two members of our council with common sense were able to get a to chalk up a victory for the city...to have voted down the horse track for inadequate studies, and lack of concrete impact information was proper...Ultimately the City of Debary will have to grow,,,evolve and a create a footprint if you will..but to do this I believe we must be very aware of what is being built...how it is being built...and not be driven by deceptive back room politics that has made a mockery out of this small growing city...we sit with many challenges ahead in the face of budget cuts, the faltering economy and many vacant commercial properties here in our City... we must vote with facts every time...as Councilmen Erickson and Marks have set a new bar...a new standard for information and proper impact studies..a cost a developer must incur should rezoning be an issue...YEAHHHH..as for our city manager...it is my hope our next city manager will have clear boundaries and will remember he or she works for the COUNCIL and the Taxpayer..we must keep a tight overview of that position because it is very clear to me that the back room dealings and deceptive committee practices start in offices at city hall with private meetings...and political wheeling and dealing that only serve to fracture cities...thank you for setting an example with this vote...was it in the interest of the people...yes..but perhaps more importantly..it was open-minded.. was well thought out...ALL OF THE MATERIAL WAS STUDIED by some of our council members...and it was voted down with for matters of written fact...not just emotion...THAT SETS A NEW STANDARD OF EXPECTATION for our council...out with the good ol boy crap..It is my hope developers look carefully at this vote and remember what they cook up behind closed doors is only able to simmer if it passes our ELECTED CITY COUNCIL.
...and now they better come with their studies, their impact surveys...and the way in which they will benefit our city and not tear it apart.....Growth and change are constant...I applaud managed growth that will serve, enhance and create vital economic impact for our City...it looks like we now have a council that will be able to guide this growth for our city....
thank you

Lets keep the facts straight when making statements like "Did DeBary get lucky with the Accardi/Senez Tiffany Center". No, the Accardi/Senez Tiffany Center is actually in Orange City. Warren Graham

I'd like to begin by thanking our Mayor and Councilmen Marks and Erickson for their denials on the DeBary Downs project.

I was struck by Councilman Lenzen's argument FOR the racetrack - that being the Hobson's Choice between two bad ideas for the land; his conclusion being that gambling was better than 400 low income apartments. As Councilman Erickson points out in his Editorial, didn't a City Council PASS that project of 400 low income apartments?

My profession is in the design and production of resorts, restaurants, themeparks, retail, and attractions. And yes, I count several major casinos and the city of Las Vegas amoung my clients. I am the "ideas and hands" of developers all over the world. I prepare projects for ultimate presentation to city council chambers across America, and similar governmental bodies in foreign countries. I am struck how some municipalities are choosy about what goes on their land and savvy about insuring that what they see in the pretty pictures is what they actually end up with. Others are like girls who have never had a date and will say yes to anything that seems to have the right parts and acts willing to dance, never asking questions about the boy's ultimate intentions.

Cities that have nice tracts of land and a fairly affluent population base can afford to be discerning, and take their time, in determining what is built. They don't have to be difficult to deal with, nor do they have to turn down everything that seems a little "off". They just need a good process of review, and a methodology for stipulating the quality of what they get, the phasing of it, the maintenance of it, and the BIG hammer of penalties that come out if they don't get it as promised from the developer. If the developer is truly interested in putting up a quality project they'll answer the questions, meet the demands, and still make a return on their investment. Because if the pro-formas are based upon a quality level investment there is no downside to them in meeting the city's demands.

My sweet little town of DeBary is pinched right now due to Faye and some unfortunate circumstance brought about by development issues. Isn't this lesson enough that we really need to take our time with new development? We really need a thorough review process, and plenty of time to do our homework, asking the developer the right questions, giving him the appropriate hurdles.

The tempation in times of fiscal trouble is to jump at anything that looks like it might say yes. But we must resist, and hold out for something of quality. And we must engineer with a willing developer exactly what that is, and insure that we get it.

You know, if we (DeBary) want a card parlor - we can ALWAYS get a card parlor! Trust me. Putting off that decision because some developer is using the "take it away" sale strategy was VERY smart. "Oh hurry and buy this because tomorrow my options run out!" If this is truly good business for him he'll be back. And Mayor Coleman was astute in his observation that the landholder may not sell that land for low income housing, HE may have the good judgement to hold out.

What we really need to do now is look at our process for approving development. Did we just get lucky with buildings like the Accardi/Senez Tiffany Center? How did we manage to get a nice building like that? How did we pass 400 low income apartment units? What happened there? Do we have any development standards set for 17-92? Do we have threshold investment per sq. foot standards? Do we have an architectural committee?

As a community we'll certainly feel the taxes, we'll feel the pressure of our problems with little money to solve them. But in this time of $700 Billion bailouts, can't we see that if we act in haste without understanding ALL the details and making clear stipulations about future events, we will CERTAINLY repent at leisure for decades to come?

Thank you for your consideration,
JuliAnn Blam
DeBary

WEST VOLUSIA and specifically, THE CITIZENS of DEBARY OWE A MAJOR DEBT OF GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO:

MAYOR GEORGE COLEMAN, COUNCILMAN LENNY MARKS, and
COUNCILMAN NORM ERICKSON.

YOU are the real men of integrity, wisdom and good character who proved yesterday to be 'forward looking' IN THE BEST INTERESTS of those who trusted you with the authority you now exercise, the PEOPLE of DEBARY. But your deeds of this time and place will prove to extend far beyond DeBary, and well beyond this day where great rejoicing is now taking place, even if only in the quiet of our homes and hearts...GREAT REJOICING nonetheless! Our great God put you three wise men here for just a time as this. May He keep and guard you and your families in the days to come. You will be in our prayers.

And to Mayor Coleman, as you go, you will long be remembered for having listened to your people. Your life has made a BIG difference in many lives. WE THANK YOU AND HONOR YOU THIS DAY for this most wonderful Christmas gift you have given us. And as you leave office, our hearts' prayer is that you shall 'go in peace',
the 'Peace that passes all understanding'.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, GEORGE, MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Merry Christmas, DeBary - NO 'POTTERSVILLE'!

Signed,
A grateful and longtime W. Volusia resident

P.S. Cows over corruption anytime! Let not your hearts be troubled, great good will come of this 'green pasture', we'll all see.

Concerning the Debary Town Center Project vote down.

Well as I said from the git go, what do the opponents of this project offer....A big ole bucket of Nothing.

So that is what Debary gets, no jobs, no tax revenue, no nothing.

No drugs, no skyrocketing crime statistics, no prostitues, no traffic nightmares, no gambling, no Satan, no nothing.

The Daytona Kennel Club gambling operation and the Debary church groups can climb out of bed and wash the sheets. Hope they had fun. Niether pay taxes in Debary, but why should that matter.

No Jobs, higher taxes, Merry Un christmas for Debary Taxpayers!

Morton C

Kudos to our mayor and the half of the council who believe Debary is a good place to live and wish to keep it that way. Thanks for having the intestinal fortitude to not bow to the outside influences on both sides of this issue. Many of us who grew up in the area came here because we wanted to be a part of this nice community, not to remake it. Personally, I am thankful to live in "Cow Pie City", and feel that anyone who wishes to live down the road from Trump Towers has the right of every American, to move to New Jersey. John Hendricks

12/1

Thank you (I think) for responding to my questions. With the majority of your points prefaced with the following:

- "From Debary Town Center News"
- "Again, Debary Town Center News"
- "Debary Town Center Officials expect"
- "David Romanik, a pari mutual attorney representing the project"
- "Green Bridge developement has identified"

... I am not sure who, or whom, I should be responding to.

For the record I am currently not "For", or "Against", the Debary Town Center development. I am simply a ten year resident of Debary who expects our elected leaders to represent the citizens of Debary selflessly and to the best of their ability.

With that said it is my opinion (based on research of the project that I conducted at City Hall on 11 Nov 2008) that our city leadership and administrators have not completed their due-dilligence for this project. From what I could discern while at city hall the project file is basically empty. No environemtnal study. No economic analsis. No expalnation as to how this project fits into the overall economic development plan for Debary. No description of the Town Center's business model. No law enforcement analysis addressiong the effect of introducuing gambling facilities into a 'small' city like Debary.

Based on my inability to see/read about the project first-hand, I look forward to the "Debary Town Center Officials" presenting a compelling presentation on Saturday (13 Dec); and perhaps even endorsing your (their) belief that approval of the project should be a no-brainer'.

vr
signed

"an avgerage, run-of-the-mill, COW PIE flinging, naysaying, nervous nelly of Debary."

Merry Chruistmas!

Response to Jeff's Editorial

The spirit of this website is free speech , why would anyone conclude that they have to ask permission to voice their views or opinion? (From Norm: The reason he asked is becuase he sent in an editorial over a week ago and I missed it and did not put it up. It was my fault and I apologized to him. So that is why he asked.)

Mr Browning " where is the analysis that reflects a $20 million windfall for the city", "what 3rd party validates this financial claim"

Quoting Debary Town Center News " Greenbridge Developement of IOWA plans to spend at least $20 M on the first phase of the Debary Town Center, bringing immediate benefits to city coffers as a new and sustainable source of property tax revenue". There is no claim of an instant $20M windfall , never was.

This is their claim, what is yours? We should be skeptical about exact figures, but what do we have going on now?

My 3rd party claim is that the cowpasture at Dirksen & 17-92 is currently generating $18.52 worth of tax revenues plus COW PIES.

Debary has a choice, COW PIES or Tax Revenue and Jobs.

Again, Debary Town Center News: It's difficult to calculate exactly how much it would bring to the city but based on a estimated taxable value of even $15M , Debary Town Center property would generate more than $38,000 in annual property tax revenue for Debary under the existing tax rate. Take into account assessments for county government, fire districts, schools and other factors, and the developement would kick in nearly a quarter million in annual property tax revenues.

Again...Debary faces a difficult choice... COW PIES or tax revenue and JOBS. Will Debary take a chance on free enterprise , the sole source of all tax revenues.

Debary Town Center Officials expect the card room to become one of the highest grossing in the state. A $10 M annual gross is a reasonable projection said David Romanik, a pari mutual attorney representing the project, That amount would generate $250,000 annually for the city. That is their claim/estimate, is it overblown, who knows, but we have a choice.... COW PIES!

"Green Bridge developement has identified more than 100 full and part time positions that would need to be filled before the first phase opens. Salaries to those workers totalling $2.9M annually would ripple through the economy, generating more jobs."

Why would all of these jobs be full time, why would or should Debary residents get all the jobs?

What is anyone else offering DEBARY? What are the opponents of this project offering Debary?

The developers are the ones taking the risk, Debary is risking nothing.

Again if Debary naysayers & nervous nellys reject this opprotunity they have my open invitation to stumble around in that pasture and dodge those valuable COW PIES. Debary, Florida the "Cow Pie City"

Colombus took a chance, why not Debary?

Morton Culligan Debary,Fl

A citizen's editorial was posted on 7 Dec by Morton Culligan who made the following statements:

1. "Debary citizens should be grateful for this $20 million opprotunity.."

2. ".. and embrace the future instead of joining hands with 'nervous nellys and naysayers' that want to stumble around in a 68 acre cowpasture that pays no taxes and provides no jobs."

My questions are:

1. Where is the analysis that reflects a $20M financial windfall to the city of Debary; and what disinterested 'third-party' validated the $20M financial claim?

2. How many full-time jobs will the Town center create; what kind of jobs will they be; and will they be resticted to Debary residnets?

I visited City Hall on 11 Nov to review the various studies, plans, and financial forecasts relative to the Debary Town Center. To my surprise they don't exist! My only conclusion to date is that the entire debate has been based on conjecture and emotion. Why is it so difficult for our city leaders (Mayor, Coucil member, and City Manager) to conduct due-dilligence before voting for, or against, such a contentious issue?

BTW - do I have to voice support for Debary Town Center before any of my comments are posted to this website? Answer from Norm Erickson: No.

Debary Citzens,

In John Likias 11/30/08 article he claims the Pro-Debary Downs forces stuffed the City Council meeting with shills wearing green "T" shirts.

He forgets to mention the anti-Debary Downs protesters prestaged and stationed at the entrance to the CC meeting, complete with signs and red "T" shirts. Many of these protesters were aggressive attempting to stuff their anti-gaming crime statstics into people's hands.

He forgets to mention the anti Debary Downs mailings traced to the Daytona Kennel Club and the so-called Victorious Living 'rental' Church that has a residential address in the "Springview Subdivision. This is important because these mailings helped make the city council meeting the circus it was.

How DECENT is it for a Daytona Gambling Enterprise to be interfering with Debary local issues? The Daytona Kennel Club pays no taxes in Debary, nor does the Victorious Living Church. Both are strange bedfellows, I notice that the Victorious Living Church is not protesting the evils of gambling in front of the Daytona Kennel Club.

What does Mr. Likais have to say about the fact that Debary citizens need JOBS and TAX Revenue that this project would provide?

What do the people that oppose this project offer the citizens of Debary? They offer NO JOBS, NO TAX REVENUE, just lame excuses and the "politics of FEAR".

I refuse to be manipulated by the weak arguments of the Daytona Kennel Club or some phony 'tax exempt' church.

Debary citizens should be grateful for this $20 million opprotunity and embrace the future instead of joining hands with 'nervous nellys and naysayers' that want to stumble around in a 68 acre cowpasture that pays no taxes and provides no jobs.

Morton Culligan Debary,Fl

Debary Citizens,

If any citizens are interested, there is a great insight into the workings and manuverings of the City of Debary on it's website under the topic WEEKLY REPORT.

NOV 21st 2008 City Manager Report;

The Volusia County LOCAL Mitigation Strategy Group met in town hall this week.
Debary hosted the meeting ths quarter in which all three (3) initiatives were PASSED.

1. Aquistion of 14 flood prone residential properties.

What is most important is what was NOT said.

a. What is the Volusia County Local Mitigation Group? Who are its members? What legal authority does it have if any?

b. What are the addresses of these properties,how much are they proposing to pay for each property and above all WHY should the taxpayer be FORCED to purchase these properties to begin with.

c. How much is the total bill to innocent taxpayers and if they were represented by any elected official at this unannounced private meeting.

d. When and how will the taxpayers be informed of these private meetings in which it is decided that they will buy millions of dollars worth of residential properties. Where are the minutes of these meetings and a roll call of all in attendance?

The other two "inititives" were of little importance and appeared to be cover for the multi million dollar buyout Debary appears to be sneaking past the taxpayer.

Nov 7th 2008 City of Debary Weekly Report

Parks and Recreation Director John Fletcher met with R. San Lassiter President of Lassiter Transportation Group on Nov 6th 2008 to discuss plans for the River City Nature Park "Treehouse Project".

Again, it is what the report does not say.

1. What does Mr Lassiter have to do with this project? What is his angle, and how will he profit?

2. Who EXACTLY started this project to begin with and why?

3. What will this project cost, who will be paying for it, and who will benefit?

4. What guarentee is there that the Debary taxpayer will not end up paying for another "Boondoggle in the Park" like the Debary Art Center turned out to be?

5. Why does the overfunded $2100 per day Debary Parks Dept. try to keep GROWING ITSELF when the citizens of Debary are facing such hard economic times.

Read the city WEEKLY REPORT, rarely if ever is the TAXPAYER mentioned, nothing about how difficult it is for the businesses and residents to pay their taxes, nothing about the 500 home "Foreclosure Festival" underway in Debary.

The City can squander it's money on fake parks, treehouses,Arts Centers , country club properties,giant flower pots and other wasteful municipal priorities.

Who cares about the taxpayers anyway, who cares about them, Debary has money to burn.

Mort Culligan

Post Time, Who Knows!!

I have been active with the City of Debary for five years now in one form or the other. During that time, I have witnessed many of situations that seem rather unusual in nature. What I witnessed in Florence K. Little Hall on Friday evening bordered on bizarre. One of the most controversial issues that have ever been presented to the Debary City Council was, in my opinion, totally botched. The issue of the Debary Town Center and Equestrian Park was mishandled by sheer ignorance from Debary City officials. We again become the source of jocularity for the county of Volusia and the television airways through out Central Florida. The meeting is canceled and the date, time, and place will be announced

I was expecting a very large crowd that evening. The number one question that I was asked while campaigning was if I supported the Horse Track or not. Mayor Coleman has confessed to over 180 emails concerning this much talked about project. I am sure that the other four City Councilmen also received a generous amount of emails. Wouldn’t one think that this meeting could transcend the 250 allowable capacity at Florence K. Little? Doesn’t anyone plan ahead and foresee such an event happening, considering what we went through this summer with Tropical Storm Fay? Didn’t it seem unusual that the opposing throng outside of the building wasn’t even Debary residents?

My anger does not lie on the fact of people opposing the Horse Track/ card room. My temper is charged with the fact that this all important meeting should have been held on a Saturday morning in a much bigger venue than Florence K. Little Hall. We have had budget meetings on Saturday morning and we would have enough time for everyone to give their opinion. If we held it at the Catholic church, we probably would have been able to accommodate everyone that wanted to support the project or was against it. This would have appeased everyone and maybe we could come to a conclusion for an issue instead of tabling it for the next Council.

My last comments lie with a statement that Mayor Coleman made about the audience, including me. He made the comment that we acted like school kids. Mr. Mayor, we wouldn’t act like school kids if we were not made to look like a bungling city once more. I love the City of Debary and when the City is made to out to be the source of jokes, I am embarrassed. Time and time again Debary was made to look like a joke over the airways. I want to see this city succeed and become a piece of the puzzle that fits Volusia County. We are made to look like the red headed stepchild because we serve very little purpose other than to be a stop on the commuter rail. We showed incompetence once more and this stereotypes us for the role of court jester one more time. I would love to turn on the television for a month and not hear about Debary for all the wrong reasons. Maybe we might have some hope in the future.

Mark Meister

I attended a City of Debary meeting tonight, Nov. 21, 2008. My impression of the meeting was that big business, meaning the owners of the proposed Debary Town Center (Debary Downs, a horse track and poker table venture) was attempting to take over the meeting by intimidation. A sea of green t-shirts advocating the advantages of the proposed gambling operation flooded the meeting room. It was obvious that many wearers were not from Debary. The meeting was cancelled due to the large number of people gathered outside equaling the full house inside the hall. The city councilmen felt they should delay the meeting until a building could be found to house a much larger crowd. I feel that people not residing in Debary should be allowed to attend and should be allowed to have input on the subject. However, when voting time comes, the councilmen need to remember that they are representing the citizens of Debary. The only way to know for sure which direction the majority of Debary citizens want to go is to have a special referendum. The councilmen could then use the results of this referendum to fairly represent the citizens that voted to elect them to office.

Debary POP readers,

I appreciate the existence of this website and its commitment to the principals of free speech. City of Debary website is helpful but it lacks any space for citizen dialogue, opinion or real involvement.

Mr John Likakis always has excellent reports on city meetings that are well written and helpful and I would like to comment on his quotation of one of the 11/05/08 Debary CC meeting speakers.

As we know there are a core group of flood victims that continually plague the city with threats of lawsuits and try to intimidate city employees and council members with their political power and omni-present arrogance. Many of these people apparently expect the whole city should just shut down and serve them alone , as they milk their selfish "VICTIM'S CARD" for everything they can get.

On the other hand, someone has a duty to remind the city council that 99% of houses in Debary were NOT flooded. The 1% of flood victims are the "tail that is trying to wag the dog".

One of these "orally active citizens" followed myself to the CC podium on 11/05/08 refering to the flooding: "we are a city of people and everyone is affected one way or another by the plight of others that were less fortunate". This is not true, the people that were flooded made their own "fortune" when they purchased in low land fill areas...simple as that.

What we really have,is relatively wealthy Country Club residents attempting to socialise their flooding problems. The 99% of the taxpayers of Debary are getting an invitation to the Country Club not to socialise but to subsidize ....their problems.

It is an invitation to pay for the fact that they negligently bought substandard low land that was bound to flood under storm conditions. Much of the flooding occurred in the "Blue Springs Basin" on Lower Lake Court or where people built too close to ponds. Why is that everyone elses problem?

Why should other Debary residents that are retired or living on fixed incomes have to pay for the negligence of the wealthy Country Club "hole dwellers"?

As an example: some of the residents of Orlandia Heights had a road problem that they also wanted to "SOCIALISE" by having all of Debary share for the expense of paving. Oh no.. the first Debary residents to object were some of the same "Country Club Submariners" that now insist we pay for their problems. Is it okay for them to "SOCIALISE" their negligence by playing a "victims card" that they do not deserve?

The city has wasted far too much money on "Upscale Professionals" that negligently and foolishly purchased land and homes that were located where landfills should have been.

Debary should set up a SPECIAL TAX DISTRICT for all flooded houses in the city , these people should pay for their own negligence with substantially increased taxes.

The Mayor & Council members should realise that the vast majority of taxpayers do not appreciate giving these "Country Club Socialist Submariners" a free ride.

Morton Culligan

To whom it may concern

At this point in time Debary citizens can better appreciate Van Conely's comments concerning CDS or Credit Default Swaps on 6/28/08 they can be found under Citizen's editorials on this website.

We should be glad someone saw it coming, most of us knew the US economy was somehow living on a lie, but Mr Conely and others knew which cancerous lies infected the rotten heart of the US financial system.

The misrepresentations, lies and fraud of our highest financial leaders is amazing in their scale, but nothing new. Wall St. executives, US government politicians seem to be in a systematic conspiricy to mangage the lies and illusions that this country is still wealthy, honest or worthy of any respect.

Millionaire Secretary of the TREASURY Paulsen was right in the middle and profited from all this FRAUD when he was CEO of Goldman Sachs, yet he is now in charge of straightening the mess out. The Bush Administration has put a bank swindler in charge of the investigation of the swindle....and he gets to keep his share of the stolen money.

Presidential candidate and millionaire Johnny McCain was one of the "Keating Five" a group 5 disgraced politicians caught attempting to influence the regulators in favor of Lincoln Savings and Loan. The Savings and Loan scandal was another multi billion dollar product of "creative theft by deregulation". Why anyone would consider someone of such low moral fiber as Sen.John McCain for any political office is shocking, but after the disasterious administration George W Bush , anyone would look good.

Of course in our country's dishonest justice system if someone robs a convenience store for $50 bucks he is libel to get ten years in prison, yet Wall St executives steal billions, keep the money and have no chance prosecution. Freedom, liberty and lawyers..for CEOs, politicians and the wealthy. Justice is a nice sounding word but rarely a reality in our corrupt degenerate nation.

The gains in the market have been privatized and locked away, by wealthy insiders, then as the house of cards collapses the losses will be socialized via the taxpayer and the national debt.

From 1776 until 1979 this nation's debt never exceeded $1 trillion. The beginning of the end came with the Reagan Administration, this foolish President bought votes with large tax cuts and proceeded to waste hundreds of billions on our military terror machine. Look at the National debt charts for yourself, follow the RED INK, follow the lies from 1980 Reagan disaster until now.

This nation has been living on financial lies for years, Credit Default Swaps, AAA rated LIES from Moodys & Arthur Anderson, Hedge Funds, Liar Loans, EZ credit, ARMs, PAPER DOLLARS backed by nothing that is REAL or truthful.

Yet people actually think the USA is the richest nation in the world...WHAT??? Where is the money, shut off the printing presses and the lies at the treasury, then show me the money. If we are so rich why are we borrowing more PAPER MONEY to service the interest on our $10 trillion dollar national debt?

Did it ever occur to anyone that PAPER MONEY cannot be physically printed as fast as our nation is free falling into debt? We left the Gold standard in the 1930s, the Silver Standard in 1964, and cannot even maintain a PAPER money standard today.

The USA is not only a finacially bankrupt nation it is a morally bankrupt nation. We are borrowing money from the Communist Chinese to finance a 7 year old war of revenge against an enemy that has manuvered the USA.....EXACTLY where they wanted.

This war is costing us billions per month as it costs our enemy nothing. Time and expense will defeat the USA, no question about it, Our platinum and gold plated war machine is a greater threat to the USA economically than it is to the enemy militarily.

There will be no victory for the USA, there will be only debt and regret. Our best option at this point in time is to LIE our way out of this war, just like we LIED our way into this war.

Americans claim "God Blesses America"..... Perhaps theys hould ask "Why should God Bless America".

Some people consider saluting a flag to be patriotic, I consider it an empty gesture if you do not know the truth about your nation's history and what it has become.

Morton Culligan
US Military Empire
**************************************************

Dear Mr. Scott Greene,

I consider your inapt ratings article on Mr. Van Conoley and me about as informative and accurate as a bad version of the Inquirer. You are rating an individual that doesn’t even serve on a committee or board as having the attribute of working with the citizens of Debary? POPPYCOCK!! This whole ratings scheme is judged by one individual that has had it out for me since I used common sense and proved that Mr. Conoley was not as informed as he believes he is on an earlier editorial I named Conoley Contradictions. Mr. Gene Stump was the one to write a rejoinder concerning this. Hmm!!

Just for everyone’s information, I have looked up Mr. Scott Greene’s phone number, address by residential records, and voting records. Guess what everybody, he doesn’t even have a record and he is an “informed” citizen. Nice job Mr. Greene!! You should write for Penthouse Forum Letters or something along that line.

As for 100++++ Nikki ( please Lord, give me strength), I never said I was a Burt Reynolds and far from it. I just want to serve the people of Debary. I am who I am and I know my limitations. You may consider me as Quasimoto but I tend to judge a person by who they are inside and not worry so much about outward appearances. I do not have the money to afford expensive clothes or ride around in a great looking car. I am Mark Meister and trying to do the best job that I can. Please do not try to Blackwell me.
If you want someone that will serve the people, I am your man and have proven this time and time again. I am not going to blast Mr. Conoley on his shortcomings because I feel that we should be talking about the issues at hand. He has not debated these issues but keeps on reflecting on old issues from Councils gone by. I tend to be a positive individual and positive actions lead to positive results. I plan to positively be the best City Councilman that I can be.
So Mr. Scott Greene or whatever your name is really, I am letting the good people of DeBary decide who the better man may be. Come November 4th or early November 5th, we will have the answers. I wish Mr. Conoley good health and good wishes and I will shake the mans hand in victory or defeat.

After reading the newspaper and the internet and hearing the candidates articulate their veiws and visions for the city of Debary I have ranked Mark Meister and Van Conoley as candidates for the the seat 3 on the city council. 100 is the highest rating, with 1 being the lowest. The men were rated on common sense, honesty, intelligence, and the ability to work both with and for the people of Debary. Conoley rated a score of 87.4% (he does tend to talk a bit too much at times), and Meister rated a score of 17.3% (he does not seem to have a grasp of the issues that are important to our community). On a more human side of this election several people have questioned me as to the physical apperance of the two men. On this I asked my beautiful girl Nikki what she thought of Meister and Conoley. Nikki said that neither men were much to look at and on the same rating scale she gave Conoley a 4.7%, with Meister getting a 1.3%. Both these men could use to lose a few pounds and certainly dress better, according to Nikki-and Nikki is beautiful, smart, classy, charming and she rates a score of 100++++.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I strongly suggest that everyone VOTE FOR MR. VAN CONOLEY... for a better Debary-everyone I know in Debary is voting CONOLEY..... CONOLEY 4 DEBARY..4 a better future......

I moved to DeBary almost two year ago. I love this small city so much but have not been able to find the information I need about what is going on in my community. This site has been a big help to me. I would like to thank you for the time and effort you all have put into this website.

Speaking only for myself, thank you Mr. Tullis. It's a thankless job for the most part, so your words carry much weight. With John Likakis' Council updates, he easily "scoops" the other three local papers and citizens look for his updates regularly. I entreat and encourage our citizens to get involved in the process of government at the City level all the time, not just when your "ox is gored" as a good Greek once told me. ; )

Don't ever buy the argument 'Development pays for itself.' If that was true, the local governments would be rolling in money. The reason I bring this up is due to the proposed River Bend project currently in the process of being approved by the council. A significant issue with this development is the paving of Ft. Florida Rd. and the extension of water lines to the area. Anyone who has been following this project knows it went something like this:
1. The developer wants citizen support for the project and talks great things about paving, city water, etc.
2. The citizens agree to support the project with this in mind.
3. The council, who can only see dollar signs, is so far in the developer's pocket that they join sides with the developer to fight the county council regarding the marina portion of the project.
4. The marina gets nixed, but the project is still on.
5. Now the developer suddenly reveals that he wants to take up to 6 years to get the paving done.

This is ridiculous. I have one question for the developer and one for the council.

Developer - Do you think the citizens would have supported this project if they had known you were going to take 6 years to pave the road?

Council - When, oh when, will the council learn to live within its means and stop this Ponzi scheme of relying on new development to pay for existing services?

Heard Saxon

I am not blaming you for what happened
you have not been on the council long
enough. I live in Glen Abbey on A. W. Drive
above the flooded area but look out at
one big lake instead of a golf course. After
we moved in here 10 years ago a surveyor
was next door in the vacant lot surveying
across the golf course and told my husband
he did not understand how they could have
built the golf course as it used to be one big
lake just like it is now going across the street
and behind the school and he and his father
used to fish every weekends for bass and it was called
Bass lake. How did this ever happen. After
we purchased our lot we checked it out after
a huge thunderstorm for how the water ran
or we would never have continued with the purchase.
I am not happy about $300 that is too much.

Debary Citizens

As you are aware every Debary City Council meeting starts with two religious demonstrations, the first being the invocation, the second the Pledge of Allegence.

Most citizens get to their feet and pray, plus declare their own country to be a theocracy during the Pledge, by saying the words "under god". They claim to be a nation "under god".

As we all know hurricanes, tornadoes,tropical storms are all considered "Acts of God". One would assume the same God that Blesses America is the same God that is responsible for all these weather situations.

Therefore it seems that God was Blessing America at the same time he sent Hurricane Katrina, a storm that killed 1500 people. That is what is called a mixed blessing for sure. Those that were saved praised God yet failed to wonder why the same God did not save the others.

It would seem that the citizens of DEBARY would be rejoicing that their little Tropical Storm Fay was not far worse. God could have sent a Catagory 5 "blessing" resulting in real damage and real death for our area. They could have been stacking bodies up on Lower Lake Court instead of wading in minor ankle deep water.

Perhaps GOD is watching as Debary citizens threaten to sue, threaten to recall or fire city leaders, demand buyouts and generally whine and complain about about a relatively small flood.

The City Leaders and Employees have gone way above the call of duty in their effort to help, yet it seems that nothing will satisfy many of our loudest so-called victims. They whimper and whine and expect instant relief as a child would from its mother.

Honestly, I have little sympathy for people that desire an "upscale country club" lifestyle yet are too stubborn to admit they were simply duped into buying undesirable low land in a hurricane flood prone state.

Torrential rains can overflow any lakefront property, gated communities and upset your pampered lives, that is just the way it is.

Perhaps you people that claim to love GOD should thank him that your carcass still has a heartbeat and quit complaining and attempting to shift the blame to others.

Morton Culligan
US Military Empire

I FEEL THAT IF THE CITY MANAGER IS LOOKING FOR OTHER CITIES ARE BEING CONSIDERED FOR EMPLOYMENT THAT WE AS A CITY SHOULD PUT OUT A NOTICE FOR HIRING OF THIS POSITION AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

For years I have let our local mis-leaders know that by all the over building they were crapping in our city's mess kit. I do a lot of work for people in Debary Country Club and it astounds me the lack of quality that has been foisted onto these folks. When people spend that much for a house, they should get better than pretty door knobs and bathroom fixtures. I used to joke with them about falling for the old 50's scam of buying swamp land in Florida. This year it proved out not to be so funny. Debary and Volusia County councils have all had a hand in allowing developers to build in our natural retention areas. The people who buy the houses usually aren't aware of the history of the their property.

Some of the flood victims want ALL citizens of Debary to pay for their misfortune. Those of us who did our research before we built shouldn't be on the hook for those who permitted, inspected, built and sold these properties.

Even though the national elections have the limelight, local elections are very important. Take the time and find out who the candidates are and what issues they REALLY support.

Today marks a day in American history that will always remain in infamy. Exactly seven years ago today, I laid in bed staring at my television set in shock and dismay at the events that were transpiring in New York, Washington D.C., and a field in rural Pennsylvania. On this surreal September day, we watched two passenger planes with terrorists in control do such unthinkable and heinous acts upon the citizens of this great country. We watched two billowing clouds of smoke and fire coming from the World Trade Center. We saw a plane smash into the side of the Pentagon in Washington D.C. and a fourth attempt foiled by bravery over a field in western Pennsylvania that would have inevitably been targeted for the home of the President of the United States. Barbarous acts of terrorism upon many of innocent people for the sake of a madman seducing young and vulnerable gentlemen in the name of holy jihad. Seven years later, the perpetrator and mastermind remains free and still spitting his venom to the world community.

As I remember that day seven years later, the eeriness of not hearing a plane in the sky. The looks of the citizens of this country in shock and dismay as they go through the rigors of the day not knowing what was in store for us as time goes on. The hopes of love ones dashed as the terrible news was being relayed to the world of all the casualties. The United States Senate standing in unison and singing GOD BLESS AMERICA.

The one thing that has always been evident is that the American public should rise from adversity and come together for a common goal. The common goal is freedom and this is what this Country was founded upon. Many of nations of the world look upon the United States of America in envy and disdain. We have the freedom to elect our officials in an election whereas many of kingdoms and countries of the world are ran on the basis of fear and cruelty. Our Country has the right to free speech and freedom of the press. We have the right to worship our religion and not be condemned for it. We have the right to meet at this town hall and voice our opinion.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is another one of those times when the citizens have to pick themselves up from adversity. If someone cannot stand on their own, help them up. We must come together for the goal of helping one another and making this City of DeBary that special community that it is. We must overcome the obstacles, stride forward and achieve a satisfactory conclusion for the good of all. Lets let clear heads prevail and constructive dialogue be the order of the day.

In 1992, I drove from my house in Broward County to visit my mom and dad in Dade County. During my visit, I mentioned to my father that I had recently completed my third graduate degree. My father looked at me and said: " Son, it appears that you may be educated beyond your intellectual level." I was never really sure what my father meant by this, but I think about it from time to time. One thing that life has taught me is that life experiences are far more valuable than any college or university degree. The second thing that I learned is that it is extremely important to listen to others and learn from them. As a candidate for the DeBary City Council, I am well aware that I do not know everything that I need to know to serve the People.

However, I intend to listen to the People and learn from them so that I can cast informed votes as a Council Member. I have spent considerable time studying our stormwater problems. I have read vast quantities of materials sent to me from the St. John's River Water Management District , and I read several books about pumps and pumping systems. Still, I do not feel that I am an expert and ready to cast an informed vote for the People. As I was walking door to door, I met Mike Kolba who is a retired engineer and a resident of DeBary. Mike is on a high technology level well above me. I asked Mike if he would have time to advise me on stormwater issues. He said that he would be glad to help. I mention this because I believe that one of the greatest failures of past city councils was that some members failed to listen to the wise advice from DeBary residents. I believe that some past Councilmen placed so much emphasis on the opinion of the city manager that they closed their minds to the wise opinions of others. If elected, I plan to listen to the opinions of our city manager and the other councilmen, but I plan to seek advice from our residents so I can make truly informed decisions that are in the best interests of all of the residents of DeBary.

For one-hundred forty years, the "No Aid Provision" of Article I, Section 3 of the Florida Constitution has provided for greater religious freedom and civil liberties protections than the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution by specifically guaranteeing that no Florida taxpayer is compelled to support churches, synagogues, mosques or other houses of worship. But that constitutional scheme will radically change if either of two constitutional proposals (Amendment 7 and Amendment 9) becomes law. Both proposals would repeal the "No Aid Provision."

For decades, religiously-affiliated organizations have used public dollars to help combat poverty and to provide housing, education, and health care services for those in need largely unburdened by concerns over discrimination or entanglement between government and religion. More information about these proposals and how to contact the Taxation and Budget Reform Commission can be found on the Commission web site: www.floridatbrc.org.

Let's keep the separation of church and state. Vote NO on 7 and 9.

A2 - The Florida Conference of the United Church of Christ even opposes Amendment 2 because of its hidden bigoted agenda! Amendment 2 also bans civil unions, domestic partnerships, and prevents unmarried partners from receiving any benefits, including the right to visit a dying partner (gay or straight) in the hospital! Florida is the only state with a ban on gay adoptions, and there are efforts underway to insert discriminatory language into the Florida Constitution limiting marriage to a man and a woman. Thousands of men, women and children in Florida could lose their much-needed health benefits if the proposed marriage ban passes. Do not be fooled by the general description of the amendment, it does not tell the whole truth and the extent to which it will take away rights & benefits to ALL unmarried couples. Vote No on 2.

John Lewis

Thanks to the council members who assisted our citizens during the fooding, especially for those who had to evacuate.

1. How would you possiblY know what kind of storms came through
this area 600 years ago?
2. Did the Indians use asphalt or cement?

Let me preface this posting by offering my condolences to all whom have been negatively impacted by the flooding that has come to our community. This is a tragedy of historic proportions and most certainly has affected more citizens than any previous hurricane, tornado or flood in the community's history.

I had the opportunity to observe some disturbing hysteria and pack mentality at the City Council meeting last evening (8/27/2008) and came away shaking my head and a little less sympathetic toward the plight of some of these folks. The meeting began with a very informative and impartial presentation by David Hamstra, from PEC. He provided some insight as to the topology in and around DeBary, the placement of pumps, the flow of water and the rationale for why some pumps were not pumping. He also let the audience know that the St. John's Water Management District has a great deal of control over the timing and the volume regarding adjusting the lake and retention pond levels in the City. There was also an informative graph indicating daily rainfall amounts during the week. He went on to discuss the status of the various storm water control projects that were approved in 2005.

One very interesting point he made and one that seemed to fly right over the heads of the hysterical masses was that IF all the lakes and retention ponds were lowered to the maximum permitted in advance of the storm AND all the CIP storm water Projects were in place, the city could reasonably handle about 200 million gallons of rainfall. By some (very conservative) estimates, 800 million gallons of rain fell during the storm – FOUR TIMES the capacity of our systems ability to handle it. Nothing could have prevented the flooding we observed. Further, DeBary could not ever afford a system capable of handling 800 million gallons.

David didn't say this but I thought it: had this rainfall occurred 600 years ago when the Tomoka Indians or whatever tribe occupied this area, THEY would have been flooded out. The lakes would have risen, the ground would have exceeded its capacity to hold water and their teepees would have been washed away.

George Coleman then opened the floor to QUESTIONS from the public. This took an incredible amount of guts since he, the rest of Council, Maryann, and City staff have been in the line of fire for the better part of a week. As expected, there were no questions. Rather, there was a lot of complaining, armchair quarterbacking, argumentum ad hominems, personal attacks, accusations and threats disguised as rhetorical questions.

The vast majority of questions that WERE asked had been addressed in Hamstra's presentation. It was like these people didn't even listen since they were so busy formulating their attacks. The few folks that got up and suggested that perhaps maybe we should not rely so much on others to take care of us but rather, take care of ourselves were shouted down and booed. The "pack" didn't want to hear anything like that. Speaker after speaker got up and repeated what the first person had already said a dozen times. Everyone wanted to know when their government check was going to arrive.

One issue – flood insurance seemed to generate a lot of angst. Lots of folks apparently took the advice of their mortgage company and didn't get flood insurance because their lender told them it wasn't required. That seems akin to asking my auto mechanic for investment advice. Just because the loan guy at the bank says it's not required, it should not be interpreted as "don't get it". If a homeowner wants to insure against a catastrophe of rising water, then perhaps they should consider purchasing flood insurance.

One of the low points of the evening came when one of the blamers asked for Coleman and Couson's resignations. I guess she felt that those two took an airplane, seeded the clouds over her house and, once the rain started falling, ran a fire hose into her front door.

Some carpetbagger attorney impersonator got up and handed Colemen (presumably) some sort of notice of intent to file suit against the City. He made a big grandstand and stormed out. I took that one personally since I, and 18,000 of my neighbors will likely be paying to defend ourselves against that nitwit.

Overall, the theme seemed to be blame someone else for my problems and get the government (us) to pay for them.

Kudos to Council and staff in their diplomacy and their handling of this crisis. I wish folks would get out of their faces and let them do their jobs!

Nice meeting you tonight John. I live across the street from Mr. Erickson. Thank you for your proposal for a more structured "plan" presented before them. Nothing was learned tonight by those who are at such a loss. What can the "people" do to resolve what should have never been?

Kate on Azalea

The following statement appears on my campaign literature. " The Council voted to hire a "grant writer" for $5000.00 per month with your tax dollars. The " grant writer" never secured one grant for our city!" As I was researching and analizing the city budget, I realized that the numbers did not add up. A year's salary for the grant writer would be $60,000.00. Yet it seemed that the grant writer was paid even more. I asked for a copy of the contract between the City of DeBary and the grant writer. As I read through the contract, red warning lights began to flash.

The name of the corporate entity was CAPITAL PHILANTHROPY GROUP. Wow! I was expecting a name like Grant Writers, Inc., or the Grant Writers Group, Ltd. The second red light began to flash when I learned from the contract that the corporation was in Boca Raton, Florida. Boca is about a 5 hour drive from DeBary. I would have thought that it might have been a great idea to hire someone within a ten to fifteen mile radius from DeBary.

The third red light began to flash when I read: " CONSULTANT BILLABLE HOURS." Here are some: 1) Project manager, $175.00/hour; 2) Contract manager, $155.00/hour; 3) Accounting manager, $120.00/hour; 4) Project Facilitator, $85.00/hour; 5) Project Grant Inspector, $65.00/hour; 6) Clerical, $55.00/hour.

If anyone believes that I am making a joke, this document is available to anyone upon request at City Hall. Unfortunately, the joke seems to be on the hard working DeBary Taxpayers who paid a total of $101,586.60 to an organization that did not secure one penny of grant money for our city!

Lastly, what lessons can be learned other than how easy it is to spend others peoples tax dollars? I would suggest that the first lesson to be learned is that our City Council should always direct the city manager to provide a copy of ALL ( repeat ALL) contracts to Council Members before the final Council vote. The second lesson is that Council Members should always ask themselves if the expenditure of public funds is ethical, worthwile, cost efficient, necessary, and in keeping with our city's needs.

I believe that if either lesson had been learned, this contract would have NEVER been signed.

Your question "Has anything improved since 2004"? It appears from driving around DeBary and watching the News coverage, the answer is a resounding NO! All of this time the city has been under the stewardship of Ms Courson (If I remember correctly, the last city manager was fired over a comment made to a citizen during the flooding 4 years ago).

I was extremely disappointed when I read the other day that the City of Deltona did not even have Ms Courson as a finalist for their City Manager's Position. I guess Deltona is much smarter than what I had previously thought. The one thing that has me frightened now is that I have read that the DeBary Mayor and the city council have voted to give Ms Courson all of the money needed to AGAIN drain the city after this storm. I sure hope there is very strong and continuous oversight of her spending on this matter.

One last point, after reading the comments attributed to the Mayor relating to Ms Courson applying for and than not making the final cut for the Deltona position, it is quite apparent that unlike Joe Biden, our mayor does not get it! Fortunately we can remedy that very soon.

Thanks for this great web site! I am,

Sincerely,

What is with the Vice Mayor? I always knew he was an idiot, but I never suspected he was also a stooge for mafia gambling elements (green bridge). How much is he on the take from with them?? (I am sure the green bridge "Soprano boys" will be funding whatever office that dimwit runs for in the future.)

Is there anyone on the stand (minus Mr. Marks & Erickson) who is NOT in that hoodlum Danny Allen's pocket? There is going to be a tidal wave of opposition to this thoughtless idea.

I read the article in the Deland Deltona Beacon, June 16 th, 2008, and was absolutely appalled. When will the City Manager (Maryann Courson) stop using our money as an ATM Machine for any cause she sees fit to endorse (no matter what the people want) – and any friend she feeds should be blatantly take our money? I, for one, am sick of it and wish she would hand in her resignation, if she has a shred of dignity left. Barring that, the Council should once again vote on getting her out. If it’s not unanimous this time, shame on the rest of you.

And where are the other people out there who have had it with Maryann Courson? For crying out loud, speak up, write in – do something!

I watched the Council Meeting of 6/4/08 on the web-cast so let’s see if I get this straight; The City hires a consultant firm GAI to produce a report. The report is called the EAR (Evaluating and Appraisal Report) and is mandated by the State. This report will assess the city’s present state like population and growth and propose updates and changes about the city and will cost $140,000 of taxpayer’s money.

Our two new Council Members Ericson and Marks doing what they were elected to do read the report and found so many major mistakes that it became very embarrassing for the other three rubber stamps and the City Manager. Not only did the other three quack quacks not read the report, they didn’t even bring the report to the Council meeting. I guess they thought they had it covered at the private City managers meeting they have before every Council meeting.

Does the City recoup the $140, 000 or is that just gone forever? If it’s mandated by the State do the taxpayers pay for it, again? How much money has GAI cost the City?

Isn’t it time to change the three rubber stamps and give the two who are doing the job more support? I know I will vote for change.

At least Ericson and Marks tried to negotiate. The other three just vote it in. Way to work for the people. Joe Braxton

DeBary residents to pay more for trash pickup

Residents will pay an extra $24 a year to get their garbage collected.

It's going to cost more for DeBary residents to get rid of their trash.

The City Council voted 3-2 Wednesday to jack up the per-house charge from $132 to $156 per year -- an increase blamed on higher fuel costs.

Council members Lenny Marks and Norm Erickson voted against the increase, saying that rising fuel costs were not enough justification for bigger bills. Garbage bills are tacked on to the annual property-tax bills homeowners get in November.

"Their [WastePro USA of Longwood] contract gives them the right to petition for unusual changes in cost," Erickson said. "I don't know that inflation is unusual. I think that it is usual . . . I would take the way of the middle and go back to discussing options in regards to service."

Marks also pushed unsuccessfully for changes in service in lieu of pushing up the price, such as cutting in half once-a-week yard-waste pickups.

He raised concerns about a $24-a-year hike being passed on to taxpayers with "costs of their own." He also said the increase is paying for more than fuel. Other parts of the increase are labor, upkeep of vehicles and health insurance for workers, he said.

"We are talking about fuel, fuel, fuel, but it appears that it is only a quarter of the problem," Marks said.

However, Tim Dolan, a WastePro official, said that pain at the pump has pushed up all of the company's expenses.

"As far as service adaptations, I would be happy to sit with the city and discuss any variances in service they would like to address," Dolan said. "But, I guess the point I am trying to make is that if the contract were up today, you would be looking at a 50 percent increase."

Dolan pointed out that Orange County averages $18 a month -- or about $216 annually -- for similar trash services. "These rates are very favorable to the city of DeBary," he said.

But some DeBary residents said the increase is, well, garbage.

"I am dealing with higher costs, too," Craig Cooper said at the meeting. "It costs me more to go to the grocery store, to fill up my truck, and I have only gotten a 3 percent pay increase in the past three years. They are asking for too much of an increase. They should learn to curb their spending like I have learned to curb my spending."

Cooper and other residents also complained they aren't getting what they are paying for, saying garbage trucks leave behind messes and cans in the streets.

City Manager Maryann Courson said the contract has a penalty clause, so those issues can be rectified, but the city "cannot monitor the contract if we don't get a report."

City Council member Jack Lenzen said the cost could go up more if the city tried to fight the $24-per-year increase.

"If we think this is expensive, other options would triple our costs if we tried to hard-line this," Lenzen said. "In all fairness, when we signed this contract three years ago, no one knew diesel would be this much."

Volusia County politicians are considering a spay/neuter ordinance. I believe that this is just another example of politicians "barking up the wrong tree."

XXX It is believed that our caveman ancestors developed a symbiotic relationship with wolves. The wolves were given food and the wolves warned our ancestors of impending dangers by using their keen senses of smell and hearing.

XXX Over many generations, selective breeding has resulted in many different types of dogs. As a person who believes that dogs make wonderful pets, I despair that genetic inbreeding has resulted in neurological, endocrine, and skeletal diseases in our pets. I advocate cross breading of different species of dogs in order to reduce disease and to breed happier and healthier dogs.

XXX Since politicians tend to believe that they have the right to regulate every aspect of our lives, I suggest that the politicians pass an ordinance that encourages crossbreading of dogs. If memory serves me correctly, I believe that it was Andrew Marvell who said: " Men are generally more concerned with the breed of their dogs and horses than of their children."

XXX In summary I believe that we should crossbread our dogs and spay/neuter corrupt and incompetent politicians. I have long believed that it is immoral to allow corrupt politicians to procreate. Now here is an idea that I believe that all reasonable voters can support!

How is it OK to do illegal things? I was at the meeting but in the newspapers it didn't say antying about the impact fees and the money we've paid that aren't legal. if the council wants to work with the city manager fine. But I want my money back. who can I talk to about this? it's time to create a stir. Where is the leagal people at on this?

Debary Citizens

The $100 + a barrel oil prices everyone is complaining about were first predicted in 1964 ! Well, that is the first time I was informed anyway.

That is right, I attended a town hall meeting back in 1964 where there was a special guest speaker from Tulane University in New Orleans. The speaker was not a politician but a person armed with FACTS, no lies, no religious/political fantasies...just the facts.

This Tulane University professor predicted. water shortages, hydrocarbon depletion,food shortages, many of the things he predicted in 1964 are exactly what is happening today. His predictions for all these events were to take place "near the turn of the century".

He had no crystal ball, no tarot cards, no biblical prophacies, but he did have logic, reason, statistics and courage.

The first morsel of truth was a graph chart depicting EXPOTENTIAL HUMAN POPULATION GROWTH.

The second graph chart were rough estimates of the planet's resources and the rate at which we were devouring the same.

The third chart depicted what mankind was doing to control his numbers and his appetite for destruction. The chart was blank because it represented what mankind was doing at the time. NOTHING.

This gentleman had no agenda other than the truth as he described what little respect humanity had for the planet they are currently devouring at such a rapid pace.

The professor statistics were questioned, his conclusions were challenged and he was actually BOOED ...right in the middle of his presentation, by americans that did not want to hear the unsettling truth in 1964.

I remembered his presentation, because everything he said made perfect sense and he had no motive other than to inform and to warn.

The fact is, humanity has done NOTHING but exploit this planet since day number one. NO mercy for any plant, any animal ,any mineral, anything at all.

Mankind has NOTHING other than the earth. It is the source of EVERYTHING, there is no other source for anything period.

WE have NOTHING...other than this GOOD EARTH...NOTHING but the human herd of 6.8 billion.

Now it is time to watch the Good Earth REACT to the threat it faces, it has reacted,and will react more dramatically to the 6.8 billion humans that are exploiting and devouring it.

There will be no safety or surprise,nor should there be.

Morton Culligan
US Military Empire
Florida Imperial Sector

Debary Citizens

The very first City Council meeting I ever attended had Sandra Wilson hustling money from the City for the Debary Arts League.

The last CC meeting I attended Ms Wilson was there invoking the children and the handicapped as she asked for $600k for the DAL

Later I find out she hustled 1 million dollars of taxpayers money from the ECHO fund in Volusia County in the last two years.

Then there is the land the city of Debary gave this woman for her Debary Arts Center, that helped her get more taxpayers dollars for her multimillion dollar art center.

Where she got the millions for this, and how much was taxpayer money, I do not know.

The DAL is continually having events that always appear to be fund raisers for the DAL coffers....how much $$$MONEY$$$ does Sandra Wilson and the DAL need??

Will the DAL and Sandra Wilson ever stop HOUNDING our community for money.

The billboard in front of City Hall, the newsletter always is full of free advertising for DAL events, none of the money ever gets back to the government or taxpayers.

The environmental damage caused by her Debary Center for the Arts is a disgrace, especially because the money was obtained from the ECHO fund.

Echo is a wasteful ridiculous organization that actually gave $600,000 last year for a photography museum when Volusia County was cutting money out for schools

Is any business or level of government safe from the RELENTLESS HOUNDING for money from the DAL??

Perhaps Debary and Volusia County should just give up and write Sandra Wilson and the DAL a blank check, who cares about the taxpayers anyway.

Morton Culligan

About one year ago, someone attempted to steal my wife's identity.I went with my wife to the sheriff's office in DeBary to report this. After my wife gave the report, we spoke with Investigator Charles Lee. Mr. Lee is an expert on identity theft and he took time to tell us a great deal of important information. My wife and I learned how to better protect ourselves from identity theft criminals. XXX I noticed, in the DeBary Newsletter, that Investigator Lee was scheduled to speak on April 21, 2008, at 7:00 p.m. at the Florence Little Town Hall. I would strongly encourage all law abiding citizens in Western Volusia County to attend this presentation. XXX I would like to publically thank Investigator Lee and the Volusia Sheriff's Office for the excellent work being done in Volusia County to prevent identity theft.

How did it come to pass that Walgreens was aproved for a building size of 14,000 plus square feet when in fact the City's Land use map and the Comprehensive Plan called for a building not to exceed 5,000 square feet. Then to top it off came to the City Council and ask for a change to the above rules and a change in zoning.

I guess my question is "Why was the Dollar General store turned down for a 9,000 square foot building when the Walgreens store was already under construction?" Is there some form of discrimination against the developer fo the Dollar General store? Is the City Council playing favorites over one developer to another?

There are lots of questions that need to be answered here and I hope the Council does not cause another law suit that they cannot win like the one that Stewart Marchman Center won against the previous Council.

Warren Graham
DeBary

3/5/2008

I appreciate Mr Van Conoly's comments concerning freedom of speech and I am glad that I actually have EQUAL freedom of speech, even though I might not agree with the current US Political Regime or the local "Status Quo". Our constitution has not yet been crushed under the banner of National Security or the Phoney War on Terror.

More importantly I appreciate the fact that he recognizes that certain local people want to restrict freedom of speech. These people remind me of Nazi Party members or Bolshiveks, that were big on trying to shut up people that actually had BACKBONE enough to speak out against the oppressive regimes in their countries.

I recall scenes of mindless mobs blindly following the Nazi flag or the Red banner just as many Americans follow their flag today. There are people that recognise a flag for what it is, a government political tool, I am one of those people.

Newsflash... This country was founded by men that spoke out against a monarchy, that was far less oppressive than our corrupt government is today. They just barged in and actually said contraversial stuff, imagine that!

Responding to Mark Meister and Van Conoley about Israel.

Anyone saying "anything" that might not agree with Israeli policy is automatically branded as Anti Semite,or Neo Nazi, that way any dissent against the Israeli DOMINATION of the USA is crushed. We have been conditioned to humble ourselves to the suffering of the Jews during the Holocaust..even though we have ZERO guilt..NONE.
The Holocaust is something that no one should feel the slightest bit of guilt about, unless they were a Nazi, yet it appears that Jews want the whole world to assume responsibility for that event. I do not buy the LIE for one minute.

One of the Ironies of WWII , is that if it were not for the holocaust caused by Adolf Hitler, Israel might not exist today , think about it. The jewish state of Israel was an unintended consequence of the Nazi Party atrocities. Oh well!

Instead of STEALING Palestine, the Jews should have been given a province in Germany to lick their wounds after WWII. The Palestinians paid the price for the crimes of the Nazis, no two ways about it. It might not have occured to Mr Meister that when you STEAL a country like Palestine, hatred is generated. Israel will never have a moment of peace as long as one child can pick up one stone to throw into the face of an Israeli soldier. That is not my wish, but that is just way it is , period. Mr Meiser might consider that there might be two sides to a story not just what americans have been conditioned to believe by the state of Israel.

I have been to Israel/Palestine twice, it is a pathetic place that has caused the whole world nothing but greif. It is a crossroads of religious stupidity,extremisim and ignorance, no matter what flag flys above it.

Why Muslims, Christians or Jews would want such a hell hole is beyond me, except that people want to live in the religious past. The HOLYLAND, you got that right, most of the buildings are full of bullet holes.

As far as Israel being our ALLY... boy, is that a one way street, to the tune of $3 billion a year in aid and having to guarentee their security FOREVER. Israel like many other nations has had it's hand out since WWII, why not, americans are foolish enough to give away money. The fact that we are $9.3 Trillion in debt...who cares, keep giving to all the beggar nations, what the heck.

If I was in Nazi germany in 1933 and said something negative about the GESTAPO ,I would be "spewing negative", as Mr Meiser puts it. Perhaps Mr Meister knows less about freedom than he thinks, I know he knows less about Israel than he thinks.

Morton Culligan
Debary,Fl US Empire

I read three very interesting articles on debarypop recently. Two of the articles were by Morton Culligan and the other was by Nelson Goodreau. XXX I am one of a group of people who are encouraging Mike Bloomberg to seek the office of President as an independent. Also, I am a strong supporter of Israel. Also, I recently made a campaign contribution to Congressman John Mica. Given these facts, you may correctly assume that Mr. Culligan and I differ politically in our viewpoints. However, I enjoyed reading the articles by Mr. Culligan and I was not offended in any way that he had a different view from me. Mr. Culligan has the same right of free speech as I do.

XXX Mr. Goodreau's article seems to suggest that debarypop has too much free speech. I would like to encourage Mr. Goodreau to send in some articles to debarypop that contain his ideas as to how our local government can better serve the People. This would make better sense to me than to restrict someones free speech.

XXX Mr. Erickson, Mr. Marks, and Mr. Likakis have acted in a very responsible manner with their website. They even allowed articles that were critical of Mr. Erickson and Mr. Marks when these two individuals were candidates seeking election to the DeBary City Council.

XXX There exists a small group within DeBary who would like debarypop shut down. These individuals want to make their decisions behind closed doors without input from the public. These individuals feel that they know what is best for DeBary and individuals who are not a member of their group are simply not important. As long as debarypop exists, everyone can make their voice heard, as Mr. Culligan did.

An Open Letter To Mr. Culligan

I generally am an open minded and a fairly liberal thinker. I know that I have written some interesting comments and editorials on this particular site. I have used it to be a sounding board for my particular beliefs and ideas. Everyone may not agree with me but debarypop has given me the chance to express and convey what I want to say. You could say that I was one of the few that started writing in Pop from almost the beginning. In all this time I never had read such controversial and negative dialogue as what Mr. Culligan has spewed forth in the last couple of months.

Mr. Culligan, do you realize that Israel was created by the United Nations and the United States in 1947 because of all the atrocities that the Jewish people were forced to endure by other dictatorships and autocratic governments? Do you realize that the Jewish state of Israel remains alone on an island surrounded by Muslem extremism and hate? Do you also realize that Israel may be our only true ally in the Middle East? I find your comments bordering on anti-Semitism and sometimes offensive. We may have our differences with Israel but we have not been innocent either.

This site was originally designed so that the good people of DeBary would be able to have a voice and express our ideas on what is going on in DeBary. Sometimes I agree with what is written and sometimes I do not. This is what is good about debarypop.
This is what makes this site unique from any other that I have “surfed” on to. Lets keep this forum to DeBary and if you feel so inclined to write on a National level, you still have the Deland Beacon, The News Journal, and the Sentinel to be your sounding board.
I have written to all three and have had my editorials published.

Lets keep www.debarypop.com for DeBary. Lets not make this like an AM radio station. I hope you gentlemen find a way to keep this forum open to the people. Like it or not, this is the only game in town.

Mark Meister

I have two very close friends who were recently elected to different city councils in two different cities in West Volusia County. Each is an extremely honest man who wishes to promote clean and open government in their city. I told each of them that they were legally and morally required to attend city council meetings in their city and were additionally expected to make a "good faith" effort to research all issues before their city council.

XXX Then each separately asked me about attending the numerous voluntary countywide "advisory" meetings. Since attending one of these meetings involves an expense of both time and money, I suggested that a four question test might help. After a meeting, I suggested that each individual ask themselves these four simple questions. 1) Did I learn anything new that would benefit the People in my city? 2) Did the meeting accomplish anything that would help the People in my city? 3) Did the meeting allow different viewpoints to be discussed? 4) Did it appear that the meeting was designed to promote open and clean government or did it appear that the meeting was designed to promote the Machiavellian views of a special interest group?

XXX All too often honest individuals will join a committee to promote open and clean government and only later will they learn that they were being manipulated. I would urge both private citizens and locally elected individuals to remain skeptical when lending their reputation and good names to any countywide or statewide governmental "advisory" committee.

Apparently certain citizens of Debary are afraid of the alleged "turn" that the website has taken.

It would seem that official statements made by the elected Representative of the 7th district on the floor of Congress would be important to the citizens of Debary. Of course many do not even realise Mr Mica is the elected representative for Debary which is in the 7th Congressional District.

The citizens of Debary and their children will pay dearly for our military misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is important to investigate the motives of members of congress that were pushing for this war. Mr Mica was PUSHING for war in Oct 2002 his motives are clear, and he should be held responsible.

Follow the money....what US companies and what foriegn nations were really served by or latest military misadventure? Do you care?

Follow the money....taxes were not raised to pay for this war, where are we getting the money? Do you care?

Are the citizens of Debary afraid to wonder about these questions, do they live in fear of the truth about their nation?

The american people are afraid...that is right, they live in fear about the TRUTH concerning what their nation has become...that is why they attempt to censor.

The american people can hide behind the flag and the past, they can hide behind their church and god...but the truth is still the truth. Is it GOD and Country or religion and government? Flag and fantasy or the cold reality of truth and fact.

I am not afraid to question the motives of elected politicians or ask the question...Why would God Bless America?

Morton Culligan Fearbary,Fl 32713

After not having visited the DeBaryPop site for a couple of months, I logged on recently and was quite unpleasantly surprised that the moderators of the site have allowed so many off-topic rantings in the Citizen editorials section.

I’ve copied and pasted a couple of direct quotes from the stated Mission Statement on the site:

I appreciate what the moderators have done – that is, giving a voice to everyone about the happenings in our city. I can read things in this site that I would never read in the Wall Street Journal, USA Today or even the Sentinel. However, I’ve got to ask; when I log on to a site to read about DeBary-specific news, why on earth do I have to wade through Bush-Bashing, war-bashing, Jew-bashing crap that I can read or hear just about anyplace else?

Again, I’m thankful that the moderators allow folks to express their opinions whether they agree with them or not but I fear that they are running the risk of seriously diluting the quality of the site by allowing single-minded crackpots to use the site as their soapbox to rant about all sorts of off-topic garbage. If folks can’t visit the site to find DeBary-specific items but instead find all kinds of nut-job commentary, they will stop visiting.

Where do you draw the line? Can I start posting automobile buying tips? How about favorite recipes? Or, one of my favorites; Harley-Davidson performance tuning?

I encourage the moderators to stick with their core mission and request the off-topic posters to find one of the countless other sites on the internet to post their views on the war, the administration, the pledge of allegiance or Jerry Lewis.

I suggest "you people" research the word politics, I came up with a goody from the online dictionary that serves quite well.

" The use of intrigue or strategy in obtaining a position of power or control".

Care for another?

"Exercising or seeking power in government or political affairs"

YOUR Representative from the "political snakepit" in Washington DC was in town, I could smell his arrogance.

Go to Mr John Mica's website and read his declaration of WAR on IRAQ entered into the Congressional Record on October 9th 1992. it is real easy to find.

This man appears to represent Israel more than central Florida, why does he mention the holocaust and Israeli security in his WAR manuverings?

Mr Mica will never fight in one of the USA's wars nor will his children, he will send real americans to die for his precious Israel.

Congressman Mica speaks of annihilation and mass murder yet 5 years later he sits with blood on his hands and so do we.

This war is a stake in the heart of the USA, but Mr Mica's Israeli masters are quite secure.

Morton Culligan

ps. Shalom

On Tuesday, January 29,2008, the citizens of the state of Florida will be able to vote on Constitutional Amendment 1, better known as the Property Tax Limitation Amendment. I first read this verbal abomination of duplicity and gobbledygook about one month ago in its entirety. My first reaction was: " What in the world are they talking about?" Being tenacious, I read it over and over again until I understood it.

XXX Unfortunately this amandment does not limit either state government, county government, or city government in its ability to raise taxes. All this amendment really does is "muddy the waters" and shift the tax burden around a little. Florida has a horrible system of taxation and a vote for this Amendment will make a bad situation much worse.

XXX What lesson should the average citizen learn from this Constitutional Amendment? We need to learn that the Democrat Crooks and the Republican Crooks in the Florida Laughislature in Georgiahassee are a group of duplicitas and double dealing dirtballs who do not have one scintilla of integrity or common sense. This deceptive amendment is just one more example of the contempt the crooks in the Laughislature have for the honest and law abiding citizens of Florida.

Concerning this fire-code development on Highbanks Marina that has been going on past Council-Seats that have come and gone....
"AND"

After sitting back on this big debate and listning to who is politically correct on the enforcement of fire codes, trying to figure out all of these mathematical formulas, from the so called professionals on 4ft vs. 10ft of space between trailers so if one was to be on fire, the other has a much better chance of not engulfing in flames. It has had to be mind boggling to our prior leaders who had to have felt there hands tied behind there backs. I also have to admit, that if I was up there sitting where I was at one point trying to be, I thought,"What in the world would I do to help this situation?"

We have many people who live there with their live's at stake. If we say code enforcement wins, then what about those unfortunate people and where do they go. I wouldn't want to be forced out of my home. After all it still has a mortgage and I pay rent to be here and I live on a fixed income. "Wow" How insensitive is this!!!!!!!

I kept coming up with the same answers, over and over and over.
Someone had to have made alot of money. After all DeBary wasn't even a City then..This was a deal with the County! "Yes", The original owner, and now the property belongs to the son....
This does not have to be a no win situation....Someone has got to pay no matter what in order to fix this. The Campgrounds owe the City a whopping $209,000 and it has never been collected. The neighbors next door at the River housing developement showed up strong, worried to death about the possibility of an outbreak of a fire and what it could do especially if an apparatus couldn't get over the railroad tracks on time and all of the forestry between Highbanks and there houses,not to mention there is no buffer.

Is there maybe a solution to all of this thru negotiations between the Park and the land owners of the River Housing Association next door?
Could they possibly allow them to buy some of there land? Promising to also build a buffer? Allowing them to have more land as so Highbanks could then spread out there homes so as to comply with code enforcement regulations? If so, couldn't we bargain with Highbanks and drop the $209,000 penalty?

HighBanks, reaped the profits big at one time and is still doing so. Allowing add ons to trailers etc. this was initially suppose to be a part time park for those looking to leave there winter homes, now becoming permanent home sites. We must try to use this with some sort of leverage. This has gone on for too many years and now people must come together for the saftey of all. I only hope that you Norm and you Lenny might be able to throw this out at our next meeting and try to start something that could be pliable on the drawing board.

God Bless you guys, for I see wonderful things happening for our beautiful little City, with people really caring and listening to other people. Thats how we go forward.

i suppose mr.culigan would like us to elect the clinton regime in the next election, then maybe we can totally destroy the security in this wonderful country we live in.perhaps mrs. clinton can ask janet reno to be her vice president and we can have another waco and ruby ridge or maybe we can just give the rest of our secrets to the chinese. wake up mr culigan we are not in the bush regime the free people in america elected him.

AS A BREAST CANCER SURVIVOR ~ PLEASE, DON'T EVER DOUBT THE INTENTIONS OP THE AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY'S EFFORTS TO FIND A CURE! UNTIL YOU'VE PERSONALLY FACED THIS POSSIBLE DEATH SENTENCE, DON'T DARE MAKE ASSUMPTIONS OR JUDGEMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Debary Residents

Someone once asked me if I thought "we" would win the war in IRAQ, after I had finished LAUGHING, I reminded this person that war is more complex than a football game and "we" lost this war on day number one.

This war was not started by "us or we" it was started by the Bush Regime and it's supporters. This war was started on a lie and will end on a lie , as was the Vietnam War before it.

According to national priorites.org we are spending $275 million per day, so far $487,018,104,450 as of yesterday. Is that winning?

The Bush Regime first claimed the war would cost approx. $50 million and be paid for with Iraqi oil revenues, no one in their right mind believed that. That lie was one of many to come.

Five years later the Bush Regime is directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of over Four thousand US soldiers and approx 700,000 Iraqi's. plus 4 million Iraqi refugees. Our forces suffered 60,000 wounded many that will never really heal. Is that winning?

Just yesterday your President George W Bush was filmed groveling to the Saudi King to pump more oil. Our "born again" President was marched past a anicent copy of the Koran, wearing traditional Saudi robes. He also foolishly attempted a "sword dance" to the amusement of the Royal Family, as they flatly denied his request. Is that winning?

The entire region is far less stable that ever as a result of Mr Bush and his neo-con cronies. AlQueda, the Taliban are all reported to be stronger, as Pakistani leader Mushariff protects Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan. The new Iraq government is also forced to bring back Saddam's Baathist Party members back into the government. Is that winning?

The US government is currently building a one billion dollar "Embassy Fortress" in the Bagdad GREEN ZONE where US Diplomats can hide from the hatred and contempt of that occupied nation and the entire region.

From this "Embassy Fortress" american neo-cons can wave the FLAG and say we are WINNING at $275 million a day plus casualties.

Morton Culligan Debary ,fl

*******************************************************************

About the Pledge of Allegiance to the FLAG????????

That's right, the America's GREAT SACRED COW...our FLAG!

I had a great teacher (ex Lt Colonel WW2) back in 1958, tell us kids a valuable lesson about the "Pledge". After years of saying the PLEDGE every morning, the Colonel , as he was called took the flag down.
The next morning he told us to say the PLEDGE as usual which we all did without question.

He then asked us why we Pledged allegiance to an empty flag pole? He then informed us that we were basically conditioned to mindlessly follow each other and NOT to question what the words in the pledge really meant.

We were told to define and research each word of the Pledge , what it meant and the implications of those words.

I came to the conclusion that the pledge claimed we were a republic which is a representative democracy, then it claims "one nation UNDER god" which declares a Theocracy. Ya cannot be both!

The pledge also claims we are " indivisable " which is a ridiculous claim at best. One attempt at division was attempted from 1861 to 1865 at was settled at the point of a cannon.

So I figure we are united, at the point of a gun. And subject to God's Theocracy which is "over , not under" the claims of a republic.

This very FLAG is always displayed upon B-1 bombers and B2 bombers plus B-17,B-29,B52,etc Also Nuclear Attack Submarines, Tanks, Moabs and all sorts of weapons of mass strategic destruction.

Conclusion... we salute our flag displayed upon weapons of mass destruction...because GOD commands us to at the point of a gun.. We are under GOD and his WMD and so are all other nations that those WMD can be hurled against. It is right there in the PLEDGE!

Some say we live in a "peace loving democracy"...the Pledge says we live in a violent theocracy...with freedom and justice for all...sure!

Does "God bless America"...you bet, at the point of a gun and YOU ain't voting on it either!

Morton Culligan
Debary, FL. USA

I would like to commend the city council's decision not to contribute $670,000 to the Art Leauge at this time. They have been coming to the DeBary Council for years asking for more money every time. If they are having this much trouble raising the funds for their building, I repeat my previous question, "How are they going to have the funds to run the program once the building is completed?" The building is on public property (Gateway Park), is the DeBary parks department going to have to step in and run this program in the future?

I think the Council made the right decision.

Warren Graham

The idea is most feasible! Most likely will work. My question is...
Whatever happened to the 600 feet of 3 foot reinforced concrete drainage pipe that was never put in to tie the 3 ponds on Shell road together?
Believe it has been in litigation since 2004? OOPS! Maybe Judge Hudson will rule soon?
In the interim the status is in Limbo.
I do believe I would not spend this money at this time? Lord knows money is tight and our poor money tree is sadly bent.
None the less Joe-six pack will pay once again!
Comments??
Lee Jan. 13th 2008

Morton C

Also from Mort:

Thanks to Debary for not giving the shakedown artists from the Debary Arts League any money at the last CC meeting.

Groups like this scam millions of tax dollars from governments every year. This tax money is legally stolen from the taxpayers by governments and needs to be used for basic government ONLY!!

Actually it is really humorous that the DAL actually thought the CC would give them $600K to begin with. ARE they on CRACK!!!!!!!!!!!

The DAL can start selling CRACK to raise money...I can see the headlines now....Crack for the ARTS bust in downtown Debary

I would like to express my views of our Council meeting last evening, setting our New Year off to a great start.
I was proud of what Norm and Lenny both stood for last night. "Justice"
mixed in with some compassion for the young bar owner, from 17-92.....
I was especially proud to see that our Norm, who is a school teacher, did his homework. Bringing up ordinance's, that should never be over looked, in the case of the "Dollar Store" who wanted over 9,000 sq. ft, when in fact maximum allowable is 5,000....You have to wonder, if we didn't have Norm doing his homework, just what would have happened with the old regime? How many other buildings have gone thru, that were infact illegal? mmmmm. I wish that last nights meeting could have been video taped, just for the pure pleasure of looking at the faces of all the other board members. They couldn't dispute this one because they new we had a new kid on the block that was going to come in with Roberts Rules, and a complelte study of what is to come before them.
Thank you Lenny for speaking up before the Arts committee.....Has anyone of them with all there volunteering, been told that we are under not only a recession, but a possible depression in this Country?
Again, the faces on the others, just the fact that you stood up for what was right. No pussyfooting around. I was actually floored when they said that amount of over 600,000 figure!! I was even embarrassed for them. Yes, they need money, and yes, I believe we need the arts for all people. Im sad that they can't go ahead with this project. "However!" We do not have a money tree sitting in back of City Hall.
We have hard working people of DeBary, and those retiree's that struggle with the amount they now have to pay out on taxes, and to live. Cost of living has gone waaaaay up, where wages stay the same.
Right on! Lenny...Thats what Council people do. "We do whats right for the people we serve"
We need now to become very formatted for each item on our meeting. These meetings are not the way business should be dealt with. We need order and timing. I believe we will get there. No more, of this walking up to the podium to speak at the last minute just because someone gets a bright idea on there own time. My suggestion would be to close all who want to say something at an appropriate time. Maybe at 7:30, a half hour after we start our meetings. Im tired of them bringing up there pink papers up to the podium, still at 10:30 at night. I believe once they know that there is a cut off time. That is it!! I hope Im not being too harsh, but, I had to leave at 10:45, because of all the interruptions. Each case can go well over a half an hour. This is non-sense!!! Lets get to the chase of business, discuss, and make decisions, and if we can't, leave it for the next time so as to give a fair and accurate judgment by all.
Thanks again Norm and Lenny. Looking forward to a great 2008

I am not an individual who is easily impressed. However, I was extremely impressed by the intelligence, integrity, and COMMON SENSE displayed by Councilman Norm Erickson and Councilman Lenny Marks at the Jan/9/2008 council meeting. Norm came to the meeting very well prepared and demonstrated to everyone that he really had done his homework. Both of these gentlemen demonstrated to all present that they have in depth leadership skills that will serve all of the People of DeBary. I am honored to have these two gentlemen serve us on the DeBary City Council.

As the year 2007 comes to an end, a movie called Charlie Wilson's War is coming to a movie theater in your town. Here is a short summary of the movie. The protagonist is Charlie Wilson, a Texan, who decides to run for state office after a "bad man" poisons hig dog. After serving in the state legislature, Charlie Wilson wins election to the U.S. Congress. Wilson is a hard drinking, coke snorting, womanizer who has an episodic moment while immersed in a hot tub with several well endowed women of questionable repute. While in the hot tub, Charlie realizes that the U.S. can not stand quietly by while the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan. The rest of the movie depicts how Charlie Wilson and one rogue CIA agent manage a covert War against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. XXX As most Americans remember Ronald Reagan was President and George Bush was vice President during most of the Afghan-USSR War. Some people may have forgotton that before he became vice President, George Bush (Senior) was Director of the United States Central Intelligence Agency. The movie would have us believe that Mr. Reagan had little knowledge or involvement in this CIA operation. While that is extremely hard to believe, it is beyond comprension that then vice President Bush, a former CIA Director, was not much involved in this operation. XXX I do not know if I should label this movie as a comedy or as a new form of political science fiction. I do know that extremist elements on both the far right and the far left are attempting to rewrite historical facts every day to suit their political agendas. Each evening I watch the far right spin the news on a right wing channel and then I turn the dial and watch the far left spin the news on a left wing channel. As the extremists on both sides continue to rewrite history, truth and our Constitutional liberties slowly fade and begin to disappear.

CITIZENS' EDITORIALS

DeBary residents to pay more for trash pickup

Residents will pay an extra $24 a year to get their garbage collected.